The Italian ice dancer-turned-choreographer shares his work with Alysa Liu and top dance teams
I spoke with Massimo Scali at the 2025 World Championships, the day after his student Alysa Liu unexpectedly won the women’s short program. She went on to win the free and her first World Championship title, in an amazing comeback season after two years off the ice. Massimo choreographed Alysa’s programs and coaches her alongside Philip DiGuillermo. They also worked with Alysa in 2020-21.
Massimo choreographs for many singles skaters and ice dancers, and has a long collaboration with the Finnish teams of Juulia Turkkila/Matthias Versluis and Yuka Orihara/Juho Pirinen. He represented Italy as an ice dancer alongside Frederica Faiella, winning the 2010 World Bronze medal, and multiple European and Grand Prix medals.
Anna: Congratulations for yesterday, what an amazing short program for Alysa!
Massimo: We’re still processing. Yes! So exciting.
Anna: It’s kind of amazing that she was maybe the only person who wasn’t stressed about this event – or at least that is how it seemed, and that seems to have really helped.
Massimo: I think that in a way that’s part of her power. She is, especially this season, her first season back, she is just so excited to be back. She’s so happy that she has made that decision and she’s back on her own terms with the team that she loves and that loves her. So the energy is incredible and we’re all here [for her]. Really any competition she did this season there was no expectation. The only expectation was just to have the best time of your life because you are back doing what you love. And that’s our vibe… Of course we want her to do well, of course we want her to place well, but there is really no stress or no expectation, not even from our side. So we’re all really here to just celebrate this comeback that is incredible.
Anna: Compare what it’s like working with her now versus when you were working with her a few years ago.
Massimo: Very different, very different. I mean, our experience together in the two years that we were working together was incredible too, for so many other reasons. She was always incredibly talented and kind – and she’s both. She’s an incredible athlete, but she’s also an amazing human being, and that was always our connection, but very different. She was of course way younger. She had a completely different energy. She kind of went with whatever was happening, right? She wasn’t…that aware of what was going on. She was just going with the flow, with the talent that brought her there. But what I found amazing about her coming back now, it’s just her engagement with the whole process, that is the most important and beautiful thing, right? From music choice to choreography to hair and makeup to what costume is she going to wear. Everything we saw yesterday has so much of her vision in it. And that’s what I think created that magical program. There is, I think, so much in it; there is her story, but there is also our story together. How we finished, how we never stopped loving each other, and having this big feeling of respect for each other. I think that we found a way to tell everyone all the emotions that we were feeling before and feeling now.
Anna: I thought the program was beautiful when we saw it the first time in the season, and then as her skating and confidence keeps growing throughout the season, it’s wonderful to see it in this moment at Worlds. Was the music choice for both of the programs hers or did you suggest something?
Massimo: The short, definitely she brought the music. I didn’t know the artist [Laufey]. It’s kind of a new generation. But we heard the songs and they’re so beautiful. We had two choices for the short, and they were both really pretty, and we actually ended up using both because the other one is the one that she used for the show number. She loved the artist so much and I think that her movements and her energy, it’s very similar to what the energy of the music is, right? It’s full of emotion and kind and very melodic. So she brought the music and we helped her choose which one. And we thought that this one was the best because the one thing that she didn’t [do already was] connect was the words with her story. And so when I heard that song for the first time, I was looking at the lyrics and I was like, ‘my god, Alysa, this is your story.’ And she was like, ‘my god, it is.’ And I said, ‘this is going to be the love letter to skating, you know, of your coming back, your promise.’ And so from there, the program just developed into something so organic and beautiful.
The long was more something that we proposed. We had other options. We actually started a program before that that had a very different vibe. But then we understood that the best part of her coming back, that everyone wanted to see, was her joy and her spirit and her energy. And so we thought that picking something that was disco, energetic, entertaining, was the right thing to do. I didn’t know that Donna Summer was from Boston. So yesterday they actually asked this question [in the press conference], was that a plan, and we were like, we didn’t even know. So it was meant to be I guess.
We had the idea that this Worlds was about celebration, it was about entertaining and so we were like, with the long we should go with something that is like really fun. So it was a process. The short came out really easily. The long was more of a process because the program is harder but also because it’s Donna Summer, it’s not her time. And also it has a very demanding vibe.
So it was definitely a journey for the long, but it also evolved into something really beautiful and fun. And I think that now it’s really much her program. And so she’s having really a lot of fun with that. I really just hope that…really there is no one thought in me that is like, tomorrow I hope that she will be in this place or this place. I hope that tomorrow she goes on the ice and she just skates the program of her life for herself and for the audience. Because I know that she will bring the house down. I always tell her bring the house down because you can. And I always tell her, I think that you are at the club just having a lot of fun. And that’s what I want her to do tomorrow.
Anna: And the energy of that program, I was saying to a colleague yesterday that I think that I enjoy that program maybe more than most of the rhythm dances from this season. We have these comparisons because we’re seeing so much Donna Summers, but she has that feeling that it’s not overly-produced or overly-staged. It feels like she’s having fun, and that is what you want.
Massimo: That program actually evolved during the season. We started with a version that was different. And we went through I think, three different versions of the long. Sometimes that’s how programs [are], you need time to understand what’s going on. And when we found this version that had different music, a different layout of elements, we really felt that we found the right path for the long.
Anna: Hopefully she can keep this attitude that, even with the Olympic season. We’ve watched this happen to many skaters, and I think especially to US women, where there’s this pressure to crown the next person and put the pressure on her. I hope that she can keep to what seems like such a good mental state.
Massimo: And we will make sure that that’s the energy, right? As I was saying, there is no expectation. The only expectation is that she goes on the ice and she does the best that she can possibly do. And that’s always, not just with her, my philosophy, because at the end, this is what it’s all about, right? It’s the moment, it’s the journey. I know we all want the medals, but at the end, what you will remember is not the medal itself, but it’s the journey and the energy and the emotions that were part of that season of that program. So that’s what we hope for.
Anna: How often do you get to work with her? Because she’s still in LA part of the time? Or how is this working?
Massimo: No, no. We started the project with her while she was still in school. She has quarters, so at the beginning we had the last few months of this quarter where she was still in L.A. And so we were doing a little bit of online lesson and then I went to L.A. a few times, Philip went to L.A., and we actually built the short in L.A. But then after that quarter, we just had a conversation. And one thing that we always try to do with Alysa and that we promise to her is: ‘you are the boss here. You are the captain of this boat. We will guide you. We will tell you what we think is the right thing. But at the end, it’s your own decision because this is your own dream and project.’ And even with school, we were like, ‘Alysa, this is what we feel. We feel that you’re gonna have a very tough season in front of you. You maybe don’t remember before you quit skating how hard it is. And we said we feel that the best choice would be to just take a little break or take classes online. And she understood that after a little bit. So she moved back to the Bay Area. So we see her every single day. She took a little bit of time off and then she’s going to restart doing some classes probably online. We also think that it’s important for her. Because that experience was part of who she is now, right? So it’s important that she keep those friends and energy and connection with school that she loves.
Anna: And last question about Alysa: one of the things that I think people have often pointed out that she could improve on is the speed and power of her skating. Is that something that you’re still working on with her?
Massimo: So I think that all of these elements improved. Everything improved. That is insane, considering that she didn’t skate for two years. And literally didn’t skate, it’s not that she was like, ‘I’m not competing but I’m skating.’ She did not skate for two years. And so as soon as she came back we started working on skating skills, on the speed, on the flow of the program and everything else. Expression and connection with the music and everything. But I think that there was a big improvement on that side. Her speed and her general skating skills are improved. But we’re definitely going to keep working on that because we want her to be more grounded and even more powerful and with more speed. Improvement never stops. That’s why I always tell them, ‘don’t look for perfection because it doesn’t exist. You can always do a little better, right?’ So the goal is to just next year come back with like an even better energy and flow and everything.
Anna: You also worked quite a bit with the Finnish teams this year. And I know that Juulia and Matthias’ programs, well both of them, but especially their Free Dance has been one of the most well-received programs this year. I think it’s a great look for them and also a really interesting and unusual tango. So I’m curious, did they come up with that idea or was that something you brought to them?
Massimo: So first of all, with both teams we have a long history together, so it’s many years that I choreographed for them, and I love them, and they’re all amazing human beings, and I love to collaborate with Maurizio, and I see them through the season.
I was freelance until Alysa came back. So what I decided to do with my choreography is that I decided to do less, but be able to follow the process through the season. So that’s what I decided to do with Maurizio’s teams. And I think that that makes the collaboration really, really strong and the vision too.
We knew that we needed to do something different [for Juulia and Matthias]. They’re very classical, they’re very elegant. The year before we went with something very modern that was really beautiful, but we had the feeling that this year we needed something different. So they brought actually the idea of a tango and I thought ‘that’s very interesting.’ But tango can be tricky, right? It can be great or it can be really hard, actually, not to choreograph, but to actually sell it as a program. And then they came out with the music and I was like, ‘my goodness, this is gonna be a different angle.’ As soon as I heard the music, because it’s strong and everything, but it’s still very melodic, has that layer that I think that belongs to them. And so when I heard the music, was like, ‘yes, absolutely yes, this is going to be great.’
Then we started working on this tango and we found this story of this woman. We don’t know if it’s a myth or she really existed, but it’s about this beautiful blonde woman from Argentina that has this very dramatic story. She was so beautiful and so talented dancing tango that she was very popular and very famous but all the men were always taking advantage of her and at the end she lost everything, her beauty and her fortune and her fame because she trusted this man that actually always mistreated her, and she ended up in a very tragic way. And I thought that that was the connection that we needed.
So it’s not just a tango, but it’s something that is connected with a real emotion and a real story. And there is also a little bit of a message there, of women empowerment and respect for women, because we hear so many awful things sometimes. And I think that it was just a way to connect the skating, to connect a social problem, and something that we always have to keep in mind and fight for. So we started this program and we had that message in mind and yeah and then it just came out. Kind of like how the short of Alysa, very organic, very natural, and actually from the original choreography that we did in May, we really didn’t change much – as nothing really changed with Alysa’s short. So it’s one of these programs; you feel it, you put it on the ice, and it’s just creating itself almost.
Anna: With Ice Dance choreography, the technical elements and the choreography have to be so seamlessly integrated. How do you work with Maurizio [Margaglio] and how do you try to integrate the choreography with what their technical goals are as well?
Massimo: So I love to work with Maurizio because we have a great dynamic. He leaves me alone and lets me do all of the stuff that I have in my mind for choreography. But I always go back to him and I’m like, what do you think about that? Is it worth it? So we have a good dynamic where, you know, he gives me feedback on to like technically work on something, and then with my brain I just put it into a choreographic way. But what I thought was very important for them was to really show what you were saying, that an element shouldn’t look like an element, but it still should look like a piece of the choreography. And so we found all this beautiful kick and ideas for the twizzles for example, for the one foot section, that made the element itself really artistic, and I think that that’s what a lot of the judges appreciated.
Anna: It really stood out this season. I first watched it on TV and then watched it in person at Europeans, and getting to see both ways was great. With so many programs, and especially with the choreo rhythm sequences and choreo step sequences, you can tell the way that it’s choreographed in one direction, to be right at the judges, right at the TV. It was wonderful to see a program that had those all of those strong shapes that you can see from close up and from far away.
Massimo: Exactly. Those are all things that you always keep in mind, but not all the programs can you find a way to make it happen. But with this program, it did happen. And even like the three jumps, the choreographic jumps, I was like, ‘my God, I have this vision of like a real tango jumps, right? I want it right in front of the judges.’ And so when we were building stuff and I was like, ‘my God, we’re right there. That’s the right moment.’ So it really came out so organic.
We always do the programs in Rome, in Mentana, that is my hometown where I started skating. It’s a small town outside of Rome. And I worked there for years when I was a skater, when I was a teenager, with this amazing tango dancer and he was our ballet teacher. He’s from Argentina. His name is Claudio Jurman. And he was there around and I was like, ‘my god, Claudio, you are an amazing Argentine tango dancer, give us tips and guide us a little bit.’ And we had a beautiful collaboration with him. They were going on the floor, they were experimenting with things, and then we just put all this energy together and that work came out. So we were so happy.
Anna: That’s great. The final lift that they have where she’s sort of down balancing on his skate it almost reminded me of some of the lifts that you used to do, creating a very different hold, and using different balance points.
Massimo: That also really was so natural because it was time for the choreo lift and I wanted something that was crossing the ice. But I was like, I don’t want to do a lift-lift. I want something like really basic, flying, very tango, but it can be very simple. So we experimented with a few things and then, you know, sometimes things come out of mistakes, right? And so we had a different idea where he was holding her leg and then she was going all the way out with the body but out of that, I think one time she kind of dropped a little bit so he went down, and I was like, ‘there it is! Yeah, there it is.’ And so we tried a few more times and I’m like, ‘that’s amazing.”
Anna: Yuka [Orihara] and Juho [Pirinen] have such a completely different style in terms of their strengths and the directions that they tend to go. They’ve had so much success with these very fun and entertaining programs. What’s it like working with them?
Massimo: We spent literally two weeks building programs with them, laughing the whole time, because that’s their energy. And it’s mine too. So put the three of us together and you think that we are a little like crazy on the ice. We tried stuff, and they also came out with a lot of things, because we thrive from each other’s energy. So I wanted to do something silly and fun and entertaining with them, and they started laughing and they’re like, ‘what about that? And I’m like, that’s amazing.’ So even with them, there is this very organic energy where we just go on the ice and we try to just have fun, cause that’s their vibe. And I’m really, really happy with them too.
We work a lot on the technical and the skating side, but then, they’re such entertainers. So for the free dance, they proposed the music, actually Maurizio proposed the music, and I was like, ‘I think that that’s great for them.’ And I already had this vision of the choreo. Very Chorus Line, like I want to see the leg, I want to see the head. We watched a lot of the videos, so a lot of the steps of course come from the movie, because it has to be as original as possible, right? We started playing with things. There is a story that we always used to understand the direction of the program. And we were literally laughing the whole time that we are on the ice. They’re lovely.
Anna: Yeah, they’re very fun. I like that that program has some unexpected directions – like in the choreo jumps with the ballet music.
Massimo: Yes, and that’s what I love in general with these programs. It is my vision, but it can’t only be my vision, right? I want to know what it is you feel, what is your vision and what is your coaches’. I want to hear what the whole energy is about. I think that that’s the best way to create something unique that fits the skaters perfectly.
Anna: You also worked with Maddie [Chock] and Evan [Bates].
Massimo: I did the long. So that was amazing. I mean, when they contacted me in…We did the program in May, so a few months before that, and said, ‘We were wondering if you would choreograph for us.’ I’m like, ‘You don’t even have to ask.’ I love them, and we know each other since we were like teenagers, almost. And so I was extremely happy to choreograph for them. They came to the Bay Area, and we spent a week focusing just on their program.
And I loved it. I loved it. I loved the music. I loved to work with them, because that was something that we always tried to do in the past and because of different dynamics, we never had the chance to actually do it. So I was really, really happy that we had the chance to collaborate together. And everyone in the Bay Area loved that they came and they were at the rink. They’re amazing. Again, like amazing skaters, amazing human beings, and it’s great energy.
Anna: What do you think about the changes with how the rhythm dance has been working the last couple of years? We’ve had these different sort of decade themes, a party vibe, and that’s I guess also the direction that it’s going next year. Do you find it challenging to find things that will fit all of the skaters that you work with within that concept?
Massimo: I think that the most challenging part of this season was the social dance idea because it’s something a little bit different than just like a disco program or whatever, choreography on that decade. It was really trying to bring on the ice the way people during that time were just dancing when they were going out. That was a little challenging. So we had to do a lot of research on understanding literally to watch videos of people dancing in the clubs. So we got a lot of ideas from that, of course. I like the idea. I think that it’s entertaining.
I also think at one point we will need a break from that because we can’t just do entertaining. I think that you can create a lot of beautiful and interesting things also with other vibes. But it’s a format that so far worked in the last few years. So yeah, I think that it’s good that we keep it for the Olympic season. I think that the audience love it. It’s entertaining, it’s fun. So one more year, it’s okay. I think after we will have to change for sure.
[For the Finnish teams] last time I saw them, it was a few months ago, it was the last kind of like retouch of the program before the World Championships. And we were already talking about next year. So I think we found ideas for both of them. From the 90s there are so many different genres of music. I don’t think that we will see people skating with the same style because the style you can do you can pick anything you want from rock to like disco to whatever of that time. So we found for both of them music that we really think that fit their personality and it’s different vibe it’s a different thing. It’s gonna be a similar to this year but we’ll try to make it as authentic as possible, of course, for the Olympic season.
Anna: Do you feel an extra pressure choreographing for the Olympic season and does that impact how you work?
Massimo: I always like the idea of not putting any pressure because that’s what gives you the best result. When I try too hard, when you’re like, ‘I have to do the Olympic program…’ it’s just another program, you know? And I think that that energy keeps me calm and it keeps me focused on what is the best things for them and for the program without too much expectation. Because I feel that you’re just going to over stress yourself, and then when you do that, you always end up not being free creatively. So yeah, that’s my philosophy. Next year I just want to do my best and connect with them the same way I did for years before. And I think that will be enough to create beautiful programs again.
Anna: Has the music rights issue impacted your work at all?
Massimo: A little bit. A little bit. So far not that much. We didn’t pick anything that wasn’t there. But definitely it makes it very challenging, right? Because like it’s a little bit more restricted. You can’t really pick whatever you want. But so far we didn’t find any like big problem with that. Fingers crossed. I have already some ideas for them and some ideas already for Alysa and I think that everything we pick should be okay. Because of course when we have an idea the first thing we do is go on the website and see if it’s even there to start, because otherwise you’re gonna just waste time and energy. So far I think we’re good.
Thank you to Massimo for the fascinating conversation!
